Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 22 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1460



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Hardware, firmware, software
Re: Yet more task stuff.
Re: Hardware, firmware, software
Re: Birthdays
Re:In PE where is?
Re: Minimum TL for...
Re: Task System Revision
[none]
Re: T4 Task Rationale (hey Marc!)
Re: Rule of Man TL (was Re: Anomalies...)
Re: A Plea to Marc Miller
Re: ...and now for something completely different...
Re: Task System: Four Simple Proposals
Re: Anomalies stuff
Meta-facts?
Re: Yet more task stuff.
Re: Minimum TL for...
Re: Minimum TL for...
Re: Tasks (again), a solution.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:56:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Hardware, firmware, software

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>> I'd prefer PE software as an Excel spreadsheet, but C++ code sounds
>> good - I can always convert that to Delphi if I really want!
>
>Make sure it's an *old* version of Excel. Not everyone has the latest.

And tested so it works on a Mac.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"You may not recall the moment you asked me, but your
invitation was clear. You'll pretend you never met me,
but it's far too late now I'm here." Hogarth/Helmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:10:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more task stuff.

Joe Walsh wrote:

>Well, there's a fourth, and that's distribution - distributing to book
>stores as well as game stores.  Perhaps someday Traveller will have the
>clout for that once again.  But first, it has to show that it is worthy.


In the UK, the Babylon Project has cleared this hurdle and is available in
WH Smiths (one of the bigger bookstores) with the other Titan Books stuff
like Sandman. Haven't seen this since Fighting Fantasy and Dragon
Warriors...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"You may not recall the moment you asked me, but your
invitation was clear. You'll pretend you never met me,
but it's far too late now I'm here." Hogarth/Helmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:03:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hardware, firmware, software

In mail you write:

> [If this has been discussed before, can some just tell me the results?
>  Thanks.]
>
> I was wondering what computers/operating systems people here use?  I've
> seen quite a few mentions of Macs and only a few Unix/Windows/Dos.
>
> If you *do* answer this, can we please be careful to avoid any OS wars.

Messy-DOS here. I *can* run Windows, but it's a pain.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:37:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Birthdays

In mail you write:

>> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:52:51 PST
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> 
>> Here's one that's a bit more complex, but gives a *flatter* distribution:
>> 
>> roll dice 3 times:
>> 1st   (1d6-1) * 61    (0,61,122,183,244,305)
>> 2nd   (1d6-1) * 10    (0,10,20,30,40,50)
>> 3rd   2d6-1           (1-11) 
>> 
>> Add the results of the 3 rolls. If the total is 366 and it isn't a leap
>> year, change it to 365.
>> 
>> Simple, more even, fewer dice, and no re-rolls. It's also
>> "progressive". The first roll determines what part of the year, the
>> second determines where in that part, and the final roll gets the exact
>> day.
>
> "Tonight on Weird Unsolved Mysteries:  Six times as many babies are born
> on day 6 of each year than on day 1, six times more on day 77 than on day
> 72...why?  Scientists are baffled, and there are hints of an Imperial
> cover-up..."

So? The system I was suggesting it as an alternative to used 2d6-2 to
generate the 10s and "units" digits of the birthdate, and something
"sort of" linear for the hundreds. That gives even *screwier* results.

Replace the 3rd roll with a 2d6 "square"....
   1  2  3  4  5  6
1  1  2  3  4  5  6
2  7  8  9 10  1  2
3  3  4  5  6  7  8
4  9 10 11  1  2  3
5  4  5  6  7  8  9
6 10  -  -  -  -  -

- - = re-roll


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 10:59:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re:In PE where is?

On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:07:28, ransom@connect.iconnect.net wrote;
Subject: Re: In PE where is...?

> Hmmm.  I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with David's sections to tell
> you what was done about changing law levels and so on, you might want to
> email him about that.  (Hey, we wrote this thing months ago.:)
	<GRIN> I suppose if I threatened you with the Comfy Chair of The
Spanish Inquisition!  That wouldn't stir the memory hmmm? ;)

> As far as Resources, there is no way to change them.
	Okay... I can see I'm going to be adding in a new house rule then...

> So, Resources is an absolute, like Size.  You can import Resources and
> use them in addition to the ones you can get at on your planet with
> your own technology.  You can get better at extracting the resources
> you have.  You can use resources you never thought about using before.
> (both of the preceding ones being a function of tech and infrastructure.)
> But you can't change the amount of Resources native to the system.
	I disagree with this in the extreme, however it's a personal...
distaste here.  I suspect there were a LOT of things you wanted to add into PE
but had neither the time to smooth them out or the space for them. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 10:59:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Minimum TL for...

> The basic principles of a hot air balloon are really low tech...
> Historically the hot air balloon was invented in the 1700's, but the
> principle was used in toys and tricks far, far earlier than that.
	I remember reading that Franklin went up in one in Paris durring the
Revolution and that it was not all that an uncommon event by that point.  Also
there have been suggestions from time to time that American Tribes of the
Southwest and perhaps the Mississipian Moun Builders _may_ have had Lighter
Then Air transport or ability.  It certainly would explain all those pointing
mounds. ;)

> In theory, you could have a TL-1 or 2 hot air balloon. It would be at
> the mercy of the winds, and if you're living on mountaintops, that will
> be a large factor.
	Good point, hadn't really thought of that, though... I know that
current Hot Air Balloonists use the winds at varying altitudes to move their
balloons around...  <making notes for future reference>

> Powered airships were invented at TL-4,5 or so here, and are dependednt
> on the invention of light, powerful powersources for the propellors, and
> the isolation of hydrogen (easy) or helium (harder). The isolation of
> hydrogen is in turn dependent on the use of electricity (Gad I feel like
> James Burke ;-), which again started in the TL-3,4 18th century, here.
	Ah, James Burke!  One of my favorites, his shows should be required
viewing for all children IMO. ;)
	But... wasn't the discovery of hydrogen tied to investigations of swamp
gas?  Which if fault memory serves... isn't it hydrogen?  Or is it methane?

> Electricity helps, too, because that's the only way to get aluminum,
> which is prebably an essential element for airship construction,
> although composite materials could be developed earlier. Modern
> composites are more dependent on the advances of chemistry, and less
> on a big industrial infrastructure than are lightweight alloys...
> metalwork always needs bigger machines than chemistry does.
	Hmmm... You've got me thinking in terms of geneered organisms here for
distiling stuff....

> A few advances in organic chemistry occuring a little earlier, and the
> great organic chem 'explosion' of the 1800's could have pretty easily
> occurred a century or more before; all it would have taken is some of
> the earlier intellectual advances to happen earlier, perhaps, by,
> saaay, the Arab world spreading farther and becomng more dominant,
> undercutting the heavy hand of the Church, or that China be considerably
> less isolationist.
	If memory serves... wasn't there a Chinese Court Eunich who was in the
midst of turning China into a Naval superpower in the South Pacific and Indian
Oceans a decade or two before the Portuguese rounded the Cape of Good Hope?
But yeah, the Arabs had the keys to science and technology, but... and I'm
_real hazy_ on dates here.  But wasn't the Arab World in the 1600's in the
midst of a counter reformation that was eschewing science in favor of religious
fervor?
	Hmmmm!  Got me stirring the plotline pot nicely here!  Thanks!

> Lightweight, powerful engines are the limiting factor, I would think,
> since they would take the greatest amount of industrial infrastructure
	Couldn't they be custom made individually?  I mean we ALL think in
terms of interchangable parts and all.  However your average Master Smith can
do some fantastic things with metal.  You wouldn't Need terribly powerful
engines would be my thought here.  OC I could be wrong too. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 08:23:20 -0700
From: "Tim.Smith@bbs.logicnet.com" <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Task System Revision

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, The Boss [CardSharks@aol.com] wrote:

> In a message dated 97-06-18 02:16:23 EDT, Dreamer details the following
> problems with the task system:
> 
>  1. T4 is weighted too heavily against stats.  Skills have a minor part in a
> character's
>  success at a task throw.  These should be equally weighted.
>  =============================================================
>  2. Spectacular Success and Spectacular Failure are hard to do at easy and
> average, and easier at harder levels.
>  =============================================================
>  3.  It should be harder to roll SS the harder a task becomes.
>  =============================================================
>  4.  Replace SS with SF in 3.
>  =============================================================
>  5. I don't like the half-die. Get rid of it.
>  =============================================================
> 
> Since you have voted for a change in the task system to fix it, rate each of
> these items inorder of importance (1=most important) and don't be afraid to
> put a zero if you think it isn't important.

Point 1 - 1
Point 2 - 0 (Not relevant in light of points 3 and 4)
Point 3 - 3
Point 4 - 4 (It should be easier to roll SF when the task gets hard)
Point 5 - 2 (See Point 6 below)

=====
6. All tasks should all be rolled on the same number of dice (2 or 3).
=====

I've always personally loathed the notion of hauling around a bag of dice to
resolve game uncertainties. That was the beauty of Traveller in 1980 when I
started playing - you only needed D6's, and only about 4-6 of them if you weren't
hauling around grenade launchers or PGMP's. Rolling all those dice for a task
just rankles.

Of course, the other advantage of being a "mid-old" gamer is that I feel perfectly
comfortable running house rules that quietly ignore the canon...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 08:12:45 -0400
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:22:48 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: T4 Task Rationale (hey Marc!)

Ethan Henry wrote:

[snippage]
>
>Anyways, I think what you're trying to say here is not that
>stats dominate, so much as that without a high stat, you'll
>never attain high skill. That's how I look at it anyways.
>Someone with Dex-6 will never, ever attain Archery-10. It
>just doesn't happen. Now, someone with Dex-14 could attain
>Archery-10, sure. But don't expect them to do as well at
>basketball as they do at archery.
>
>If I had to pick a house rule, I'd say that no skill can
>ever be higher than half or two-thirds (or something) of
>the skill's controlling stat. ie. Someone with Edu-6 could
>get a maximum of Law-3. I mean, you could be less educated
>than average and still be a professional lawyer. To be
>a real crack lawyer, you'd need a higher EDU. So, someone
>who had been to college, Edu-A or B, could, if they
>studied law a lot, have Law-5.
[more snippage]

	Neat idea, Ethan, and I hope Marc picks up on this one...  I think
I might just.  Implementation could get a little dicey (such as what about
skills being used with different stats) but I kinda like it.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 14:56:17 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TL (was Re: Anomalies...)

At 04:48 AM 6/21/97 +0000, Harold wrote:
><snip>
>   It's apparent that the reference in the Imperial Encyclopedia to
>"artificially intelligent robots" is errata (and there is tons of that
>in MegaTraveller's tables and charts), and the TL 12 figure is probably
>the correct one.  Certainly Traveller Canon (what is generally accepted
>as truth, versus what the publishing company says) places the tech level
>of the ROM at 12, with perhaps some worlds verging on or crossing over
>to 13.
>
>   As to other evidence regarding the TL of the Rule of Man, I'd want to
>see proper citations (publication and page numbers) before I'd believe
>that any exists, particularly if it quotes a figure higher than 12 or
>13.  In that regard, T4 doesn't count.
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold
>

This may be throwing oil on the fire, but 'artificially intelligent' and
'expert system' are not the same thing. At tech level 12, an 'expert system'
could be basis for a robotic operating system that, to the average person,
would make the robot seem intelligent. Household and valet duties would be
potentially within the range of an expert system. Today's cruise missiles
are run by 'expert systems' in piloting & navigation. 

May not be errata, just an imprecise selection of terminology.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 15:07:25 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A Plea to Marc Miller

At 05:19 AM 6/21/97 +0000, Marc wrote:
><snip>
>
>It should be clear that I am CONSIDERING everyting and anything,including
>abandoning tasks altogether, reverting to MT, using KB, using the posted
 ^^^^^^^^^^
>system, using a hybrid, and just throwing up my hands in frustration.
>
>Marc
>
>
>

I wouldn't consider abandoning any kind of task system; maybe shifting from
'rules' to 'guidelines' such that each GM & group could evolve something
that would work for them. People that have never been RPGers will need
something to help them determine what to do, but the more experienced
players & GMs should not be shackled by one size fits all rules. How about a
'basic' guideline with optional 'advanced' sections for the skills over
attributes folks, and others for the attributes over skills folks.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:29:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: Re: ...and now for something completely different...

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 	Does anybody have a clue as to the origins of the term "Munchkin"
> as used to describe annoying roleplayers?  Does anyone know the name of the
> person who first screamed "You [expletive deleted]...  [expletive
> deleted]... umm... MUNCHKIN!!" and in what circumstances he did so?

  The exact point of origin of the term is lost in gaming/internet
antiquity, but obiviously describes 14-year old powergamers in all their
glory! ;)

- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:38:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Task System: Four Simple Proposals

 
> Proposal 2:  Change the Task Difficulty Levels to the following...
> 
>               1d6  Simple
>               2d6  Average (or my preference, Routine)
>               3d6  Difficult
>               4d6  Formidable
>               5d6  Staggering
>               6d6  Impossible (or my preference, Hopeless)

I think this is a good idea.

here's *my* addition :-)

Make Target Number equal to Stat+DMs.

Skill determines what difficulty level, but does nothing for target
number (alternately you could add in in again as a DM, I'd need to
look at the numbers).

Personally I look at the task and say to myself "What skill level
person does this routinely?"  Whatever that skill is has an Average
task.  Add or subtract from the difficulty level depending on
whether the skill level is above or below this number.

SS might be either rolling dice code plus skill, or perhaps just
skill or even just Stat.

SF is trickier since I'd want increased diff level to increase SF.

That's the whole task system.

Ex:  A bright guy (Int 12) learned a little about explosives in the
military (Demolitions-1).  A business is planning on destroying a
building in place in a crowded city so it doesn't damage anthing
nearby.  This task is normally done by extremely skilled explosives
experts (Demo-4).  A demo-4 guy would have an Ave task (2d6) so our
guy has it 3 diff levels harder than Ave---Staggering.

Our bright guy with a little explosives skill has  to roll a 12 or
less on 5d6.  And Average explosives expert (Int 7, Demo-4) has to
roll a 7 or less on 2d6.

[the only problem I might address is that Routine should really
equal Easy since it implies that you do it right all the time]

I think KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) is extremely important.  I
think the idea of doing to much (any, actually) math on the skills
attributes is too complicated (whay make a Char Gen system that produces
skill levels that you end up converting to something else and necer
useing?).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 08:42:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anomalies stuff

R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz> said

> That's another problem - if the Syleans are finding TL14 relics, even 
> in only small quantities why did it take them until 300 to get to 
> TL13 and 700 to get to TL14? That's at least as long as the RoM existed, 
> and the Syleans have these relics to help them.

Because, #$@%^!$@ IT, finding a few TL-14 relics does _not_ mean that you
can take them and press on to TL-14 right away. Finding a TL-14 Vaccsuit
isn't going to help you make TL-14 computers, or Jump 4, or a lighter
Gauss rifle, or a PGMP, after all.

Here's where the TL systems is being abused...the TL of an ITEM does NOT
mean that the overall TL of that region is the same!

> 
> However the biggest hurdle is that the new 3rd Imperium is expanding 
> into old Vilani space, and I can't see how any of their worlds 
> would've been able to provide the climate for innovation and TL 
> advancement. The high TL worlds (and thus the relics) will be in the 
> areas the Terrans settled, and mostly around Earth.
> 
> Mind you, I think that the canon history has Vilani culture embrace 
> TL progress far too readily, and badly under estimates the value of 
> espionage and reverse engineering in keeping up with your neighbours 
> - in 1100 both the Solomani and the Zhodani somehow stay 1TL behind 
> the Imperium, even though there are millions of TL15 Traders and 
> Scout ships that can be purchased or stolen and disassembled.
> 
> 

Espionage and reverse engineering are only minor factors of TL
determination...if they were all that counted, China, for instance would
be the same TL as the US, which they manifestly are not.

TL is determined more by resources and economics than anything else, or
else FOEX, Earth would be TL8 throughout, instead of a probable average of
about 4 or 5, or even less.

So what if I can disassemble a TL-15 scoutship...I can go to outer
Mongolia, and disassemble a PC, and maybe even figure out how it works,
but I'm not going to be making more any time soon! If I can't make the
parts to make the tools to make the factories to make the ships,. I'm
screwed! Having a finished product only gives me hints of the
infrastructure needed to make the thing.

Espionage and reverse engineering will only work if the two parties are
separated by one TL at most, and it'll be very hard then, they work best
at getting secrets from places with the same TL. 

Don't forget, in 1100 the Solomani had just fought a punishing war with
the Imperium, and lost their capital. From all accounts the Solomani
sphere was also a widely varied place, and much of their resources had
been focused to rimward...we don't KNOW what the TL of the far rimward
Solomani sphere was, only the TL of their military during the rebellion.

The Zhodani are working very hard to appear to be a threat enough to the
Imperium to keep them from invading, but not enough of a threat to provoke
them into doing so. On TL (on the surface) behind the Imperium makes them
a nasty place to invade, but unlikely to be a huge threat. Most of their
attentions, after all were really on the Core Expeditions, all that the
Imperium ever saw of the Zhodani sphere was their frontier regions. 


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:41:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Meta-facts?

   Hi.

> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 17:34:47 -0400
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

>>But who is to say that the adventure cannot be reinterpreted?  I tend 

> 	I'll have to vehemently disagree with you on this one.

> 	The "meta-facts" were not presented as something the players discovered,
> but were given to the referee as the "absolute truth." And, as a _referee_,
> having the "true underlying facts" of a universe are important if I'm going
> to run adventures in that universe. I HAVE to know the facts around which
> future adventures are going to be run, so that I can stay consistent.
> Otherwise, I won't waste my time and money on the standard
> universe--instead I'll either take the time to create my own or, more
> likely given my lack of time, give up Traveller. That's what I hated about
> the proposed fix to FS.

   There have never been meta-facts in Traveller.  The entire gaming
   philosophy behind Traveller background has always been since day one
   that nothing is as it seems on the surface.  Beneath the surface, the
   real truth has often been presented in adventures and background as
   being ambiguous --- the referee has free reign to interpret the data
   as he pleases, or better yet, not to interpret the data, but keep the
   players hanging.  

   There have been some exceptions to this method of presentation. 
   `Secret of the Ancients' presented historical data without reserve as
   being true, and  the old CT Library Data presented the concept of
   Major Races as being well defined, but then later revelations showed
   that the Aslan, and possibly other major races, did not fit these
   well-defined criteria.  This is one example of a `meta-fact' that
   wasn't.  There are CERTAINLY others.

> 	Again, if something is being presented to me as Referee's Info, that info
> must be rock solid. If I can't depend on it, it's worthless. The ambiguity
> and differing interpretations can come in in the player's information, or
> by leaving information out. But once you've told me "Mr. Referee, this is
> the real info you can use as needed to guide the adventure" don't change it.

   Ambiguity does not make information worthless.  The background
   presented by canon makes an excellent jumping-off point for
   adventures --- remember, that's the sole reason we have a canon,
   adventures!  Canon makes for good adventures when the data it gives
   are true, and often makes for even better ones when the data it gives
   are false.  This is true for the player's information, and even more
   true for the referee's.

> 	Whether you like the past information or not, and there are parts I'm not
> thrilled with, if you want my business, stay consistent with it.

   One of the things I always enjoyed about CT was that the canon
   allowed me, a referee, to `adventure' just by reading the rumors,
   information, and Library Data and trying to puzzle what was in store
   for the Traveller Universe.  I certainly hope that T4 products will
   do the same.  I haven't seen Anomolies yet, but already this talk of
   `tech level' (now that's an artificial construct if I've ever seen
   one) being violated has already got me scheming and planning up ways
   to rock my players' world!  And I'm tingling with anticipation to see
   how the next generation of adventure writers will rock mine.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 08:49:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yet more task stuff.

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> 
> > The big leap that we all need to make, IMO, is keeping in mind that we're a 
> > tiny, tiny minority of the current Traveller players, and an even more 
> > miniscule minority of the universe of players Traveller must reach if it 
> > is to be the success it deserves to be. 
> 
> Yes, but we are the most dedicated Traveller players in the world.  
> If you are a Traveller fanatic, and you have a computer, chances are 
> you are here on the TML.
> 

Also, look inside the covers of the T4 books, in the credits,
acknoledgements, and playtesters, you will see an astonishingly high
number of TML members. We may be a tiny tiny minority, but we have a large
impact on the game...mostly because we are the vocal and accessible tiny
minority. Marc, forinstance, can't easily ask 300 or so NON-TML'ers for
their opinion on Monday, and have nearly 100 replies by Wednesday, now can
he?

I also think, to a great extent, we're underestimating these hypothetical
14-year olds who are buying these hypothetical RPG's...they're not, as a
rule stupid or unable to grasp complex rules...if they were, they wouldn't
be buying RPG's in the first place...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:10:00 +0000
From: "Bill Hopper" <whopper@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Minimum TL for...

> From:  s.johnson107@genie.com
>     Question for the engineers on the list.  What's the absolute minimum level
> of technology required to get airships able to carry a crew and some cargo into
> the air?  

In the Tech Level chart in CT's Charts and Tables book, hot air 
balloons are specifically listed as being tech level 3 and airships 
at tech level 4.  

WKH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:15:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Minimum TL for...

On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:

> 
> > In theory, you could have a TL-1 or 2 hot air balloon. It would be at
> > the mercy of the winds, and if you're living on mountaintops, that will
> > be a large factor.
> 	Good point, hadn't really thought of that, though... I know that
> current Hot Air Balloonists use the winds at varying altitudes to move their
> balloons around...  <making notes for future reference>

Hmmm I was thinking of a TL 2 'Air Clan' who travel around, at the mercy
of the wind from place to place, and stuff just sort of haphazardly gets
around...could make for some really odd diffusion of technology. 

> 	But... wasn't the discovery of hydrogen tied to investigations of swamp
> gas?  Which if fault memory serves... isn't it hydrogen?  Or is it methane?

No, swamp gas is methane. Hydrogen was discovered when Joseph Priestly
first electrolyzed water, although he paid more attention to the Oxygen
that was generated.

> 	Hmmm... You've got me thinking in terms of geneered organisms here for
> distiling stuff....

They're called Yeasts! ;-)

> 	If memory serves... wasn't there a Chinese Court Eunich who was in the
> midst of turning China into a Naval superpower in the South Pacific and Indian
> Oceans a decade or two before the Portuguese rounded the Cape of Good Hope?

Yep, and just as they were getting good at it, the Emperor decided that
enough was enough, and let the barbarians come to us. China turned inward.


> But yeah, the Arabs had the keys to science and technology, but... and I'm
> _real hazy_ on dates here.  But wasn't the Arab World in the 1600's in the
> midst of a counter reformation that was eschewing science in favor of religious
> fervor?
> 	Hmmmm!  Got me stirring the plotline pot nicely here!  Thanks!

You're welcome...history is a great place to mine for plot ideas.

> 
> > Lightweight, powerful engines are the limiting factor, I would think,
> > since they would take the greatest amount of industrial infrastructure

> 	Couldn't they be custom made individually?  I mean we ALL think in
> terms of interchangable parts and all.  However your average Master Smith can
> do some fantastic things with metal.  You wouldn't Need terribly powerful
> engines would be my thought here.  OC I could be wrong too. ;)

They could be, but you had better carry your Master Smith and all his
tools with you, wherever you go...custom made stuff with
non-interchangeable parts are great when you don't travel more than a
few day's journey away from your manufacturing base.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 18:07 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Tasks (again), a solution.

In-Reply-To: <l03020904afd178fe2973@[194.119.133.252]>

SD,

> Put the T4.1 system in the rulebook. But put KBv2 in too as a sidebar,
> keeping the descriptions of task difficulty the same (eg 'average), as an
> official alternative system that isn't stats dominated.

Put KBv2 in JTAS. Putting 2 systems in the rules will confuse newbies; 
people who read JTAS are less likely to be confused by something like that.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1460
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